Why a Membership fees

Marty · Post by **Marty** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:02 am

Question, What do you Anglers expect for your membership fees when you join a Bass Organization? A good Web site? A Magazine? Next day posted results?

What does a â€œBass Tournament Organizationâ€

Guyle · Post by **Guyle** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:18 am

I agree Marty. I would fish a few more tournaments if there were no membership fees.

I have memberships to WON, A/C, FLW,Bassmaster. All I'm saying is I may cherry pick a few others if I had time, if I didn't have to pay another membership. But I probably don't want to so I use the membership fee excuse as my out.

Scott Shambre · Post by **Scott Shambre** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:40 am

any membership fees or late fees of any kind. You question is valid, WHERE IS MY MONEY GOING?????

Not being able to answer that question for our anglers, we decided that there should not be any membership fees for our organization and I think it has been a contributing factor to our success.

Scott Shambre
FOLSOM BASS LEAGUE
www.folsombassleague.com
www.rangerboats.com

gcopple · Post by **gcopple** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:16 am

well in defense of won bass, you do get a "newspaper". is most of it not that good? yeah, but the middle scetion is usually just for bass. but also, don't forget these people that run these tournaments are in this as a business. every angler wants the highest paybacks possible and garanteed (i am a horrible speller) paybacks and things like that, if they didn't have dues they wouldn't make money, and the day they stop making money is the day they stop having tournaments.

i agree with you though, i would fish a ton more tournaments if there weren't any dues to pay, but the reality is that they are businesses just like KFC, Subway and Starbucks. they just cater to bass fisherman.

george

Noluk · Post by **Noluk** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:34 am

The truth is membership fees are a portion of the income that orginizations use to run their business. If they don't collect a membership fee they will just have to make a reduction in payouts at the actual tournaments to cover that cost. As far as I can tell, ALL tournament directors and orginizations run tournaments out of LOVE and I do not mean the love of money. It is alot of work and effort for minimal rewards. In the case of the directors, it could even be a financial burden. Trying to keep x number of anglers all happy is not an easy task.

Dewayne · Post by **Dewayne** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:48 am

staff to work these events in most cases have to get paid, 1099 forms have to be sent out, insurance, permit fees, web site expenses, equipment, and etc. It's not cheap to run a circuit. I do not see any of them getting rich off the proposition. Sponsors will pay money at the FLW or BASS level, but the lower level team tournaments take almost the same effort to run and do not see sponsor dollars to offset the cost. Like stated above it either come out of the entry fees like the Hook Series or out of the membership fees like with 100%.

Just different approaches to the same issue.

MaddMaggs · Post by **MaddMaggs** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:53 am

I see your point Marty, but here is a question. As a tournement angler I want the most prize money for my win (100% payback). That means the organizations recieves no money from the entry fees. And some orginazations that hold big fish, etc also take no money from these "side bets". But in order to operate an orginization/tourney you must make some money, so that is where the membership fees come from. Fees are used to cover the "overhead" of running an orginization. You many not see this in brick and mortor type business because they cover the overhead via increased prices onthe products you buy. I am not buying anything from a fishing tourney just a chance to win. Kinda like a form of gambling. Everyone can fish but only the good ones win. WSOP not all the entry fees collected from the players go to the winner, WSOP takes a cut (55%) of the entry fees to pay for the overhead.

That said would I be willing to waive my membership fee if an orginization only paid 75-80% payback to the winner. Hum...since i havent seen an orginization with this format, I really cant say. If an orginization was out there with this format, sure I would fish them to kill the curosity and if it was a good run tourney/orginization I might fish them again.

Tobe · Post by **Tobe** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:56 am

Tulley · Post by **Tulley** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:04 am

For me I just pick on organization, pay the membership and just fish in that curciut. That way you can concentrate on making it to the TOC. Every curciut has plenty of tournaments to fish to keep you busy.

Bill Hutcheson · Post by **Bill Hutcheson** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:55 am

Marty,

I donâ€™t know if I can do full justice to you question in less than a 200 page hardbound production, buy I will give at a cursory try.

For starters, I wanted to correct you on WON BASS and its membership. For the $45, you are getting 52 weekly issues of Western Outdoor News, the nationâ€™s largest weekly fishing and hunting publication. Within these issues you are also getting WON BASS on a montly basis. Oh, letâ€™s not forget the 9 issues of Western Outdoors Magazine that also come your wayâ€¦. A regular subscription for this would run you $39.95, so in reality, the membership costs is $5.

The truth of the matter is that all bass organizations have an expense base that is just like a pie. It is all a matter of how you slice it. Yes, every bass organization has myriad costs of doing business, which include DFG permits, liability insurance, mailing costs, MIS systems costs, staff, etcâ€¦. This list is quite long as I am sure that anyone who runs a business can tell you. The devil in the details is how each organization chooses to slice this pie and where they chose to assign their costs of doing business.

While WON BASS may have a higher membership fee, this is certainly offset initially by our publications mentioned above. It also might be noted that we have the least expensive entry fees for our team events. We do not add a bunch of additional costs such as liability insurance, release boat, or conservation fees to our entries. These are already covered in the basic entry. We are fair in what we take back from each team event as $15 of each entry fee goes to WON BASS administration. This covers the costs of trophies, permits, insurance, office staff, MIS systems, and such.

This may be a news flash to some, but the truth of the matter is that no one who is running bass fishing tournaments is making a killing running them! Just ask anyone who has ever been a tournament director! If you look at most of the organizations out there, they are backed up by some other business entity which allows them to run tournaments with minimal profit margins. Western Outdoors Publications supports WON BASS. Genmar industries (Ranger boats) and huge sponsors like Wal-Mart support FLW and Stren. ESPN supports BassMaster. ABA has Dave Plotnikâ€™s computer business to thank for itâ€™s start. Anglerâ€™s Choice has made it this far on the back of Mark Mendezâ€™s other business ventures. The list goes on. This is why you have seen so many smaller upstart organizations come and go. They all think they can make more money, do it better, and offer 100% payback. They last a year or two until the money runs out and thats the last you hear of them.

So basically when you get right down to it Marty, itâ€™s all up to each operation as to where each individual tournament organization chooses to base its income and expense mechanisms. Everyone out there claims to have the highest paybacks on their events. If you really get right down to it, it is all perception as everyone is pretty close when you take out all the smoke and mirrors. Do you really think that Chris Angel, Mindfreak is truly able to pull an elephant out of his backside orfice? Of course not, it is all perception! The same holds true with paybacks.

All of this brings us back to your original question â€“ â€œWhy do tournament organizations charge membership fees?â€

Blue_R70 · Post by **Blue_R70** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:12 am

Marty wrote:Question, What do you Anglers expect for your membership fees when you join a Bass Organization? A good Web site? A Magazine? Next day posted results?

Not that it matters to me, but I think it's just a euphamism for "administrative fee" or "organizational expenses."

I know where you're coming from though: by using the term "membership fee," it's implied that the payee is becoming a member of that org and entitled to benefits or services (eg, the towing or jumpstart services one is entitled to after paying AAA/automobile club membership fees).

gcopple · Post by **gcopple** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:45 am

ummm....isn't the chance to fish in their tournaments the reward for being a member? last time i checked you can't fish Won Bass, Anglers Choice, FLW or anyothers without being a member. You pay for AAA so you can get your car towed if it breaks down, you pay your Won Bass membership fee so you can fish their tournaments. i can't believe this is even an issue, you should be asking why a membership fee for Costco or Sam's Club. All they are is Smart and Final, nothing different, S&F is cheaper where i live anyway!

george

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:50 am

Hutch nailed it.

Another thing that is that you, by paying a membership fee, are allowed entry into an organizations 'private tournaments'. These tournaments are not 'open tournaments' for anyone to come down and fish but privately run and administered closed field events. In some cases some of these orgs do run a few OPEN events which require no membership fee whatsoever. In the case of WON BASS or US Angler's Choice, your membership is getting you a publication and possible to entry into several different levels of competition including semi-pro teams, pro teams and pro ams. One membership can be used for all events.

To say that if these orgs didn't charge you their on average $40 membership would allow you to fish more events with an average entry fee of what $200 or $300 per team with options is kind of an interesting statement that I'm not sure I understand. These folks aren't getting rich off your membership fee by any means, heck most all of them aren't even charging enough to make a living.

sTony

MIKE TREMONT · Post by **MIKE TREMONT** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:00 am

You get a great Magazine with your Anglers Choice membership as well.
From what I understand AC's membership price is going up at the end of the year. They are offering a 3 year deal for $75.
I had to think about for a little bit.I'm not a huge fan of any kind of "fluff" charge. I went ahead and got mine for the 3 years. Even if I don't fish thier circuit, the magazine in my opinion is well worth it.

Blue_R70 · Post by **Blue_R70** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:09 am

gcopple wrote:i can't believe this is even an issue

It's idle chit chat, the same as debating whether 2 versus 4 versus 6 versus 10 all bearings in a baitcaster is actually beneficial or necessary. Besides, what else are you gonna do on company time? Discuss the latest episode of "Heroes" with your co-workers at the water cooler? Heck no...

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:17 am

Agreed Mike, not only is the magazine worth it but you've cut that cost to fish their events down a good chunk and once again they offer semi pro, pro team and pro am level events. Sound like a winning idea to me if you act now!

sTony

Calistar · Post by **Calistar** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:29 am

Can't speak for other circuits but not only does the FBL not charge any Membership Fee or Late Fee...but we also have a website and same (or next day) posted results. We've experienced incredible success so far (as evidenced by the 90 Anglers that turned out last month) and expect to continue that trend this Sunday. The Lake El Salto trip is still up for grabs!

NaCl · Post by **NaCl** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:31 am

I've been thinking about this for years. I think I've got the solution. I'm starting a new circuit, we'll call it the WIMP (Whining Is My Privilege) Bass Fishing Circuit. It will accomplish the following:

1. Pay back a TRUE 100% of the entry fees. Not a dime will be withheld for administration, trophies, advertising, insurance or permits.

2. The new circuit will not charge ANY membership fees or late entry fees. You can just show up and fish...you don't even have to sign up BEFORE the blast off! That's right, you can show up at 10:00 AM and join the tourny if you can locate the TD to pay the fees!

3. Entry fees are $150 per team, $20 Options and $20 Big Fish

4. Payback will be 1 in 5 on the following scale:

1st Place 50%
2nd Place 20%
3rd Place 10%
4th Place 5%
5th place through the balance of 20% of the field will equally split the remaining 15%

Big Fish pays back 100% for Big Fish

$20 Option pays back 50% for 1st, 30% for 2nd and 20% for 3rd

5. Offlimits - none.

Administration:

All anglers present at the 5:00 AM "sign-in" will vote for a tournament director. The TD can be anyone over the age of 17. All entry fees will be entrusted to this person. There are no blastoff numbers....just get in the water and go. There will be no livewell checks because bass fisherman would never cheat. Weigh-in will be around 3:00 PM. There will be no check-in boat but the weigh-in will start promptly at 3:00 PM and after the last boat in line weighs in the scales will be closed. If the line ends and scales close before you make it to the weigh-in site, too bad!

The official scale will be ANY scale selected by the voted-for TD. The TD's appointed weigh master will call out the weight and it is final! We would suggest you bring along a piece of paper to write down the amount for future reference in case the TD forgets your weight. There will be NO re-weighs or protests. There are NO rules about trolling, "strolling" or fishing in offlimit water. If anyone gets a ticket from DFG, Park Rangers or other government agencies, it doesn't matter...that's what the government issues fines for! We are not cops!

All anglers are considered to be fishing for their own pleasure and the tournament organization accepts NO liability for ANYTHING that happens during the event. There will be NO permits drawn so there will be NO slot limit waivers, NO reporting requirements and NO imposition of catch'n release rules. There will also be NO dead fish penalties. Each angler is free to do with his catch whatever he wants. Remember, this is NOT a permitted tournament.

Payback will take place immediately after the weigh-in and the amounts will be calculated by the voted-for TD. His math may NOT be challenged. Take what you get and shut up!

This new and improved tournament series will start anytime anglers want, at any lake they request. Since we do not pull permits, its entirely up to you guys. Pick a lake and lets's go!

Look forward to seeing you at the first W.I.M.P Bass Tournament!

(The above scenario is NOT fiction! It is a list of the kinds of issues that bass fishing tournaments have ALREADY experienced as they evolved into what we have today. In the 70's, bass events did not have rules about "trolling". They did not have rods limited to 8 feet. The very first tournaments used shotgun starts. Fish were killed and eaten after the events. There were no permits and no government protection of the resource (both the fish and the fisheries).

Today's bass fishing tournament circuits are the result of four decades of improvement. Are they perfect? Of course not. And, some give more back to the anglers than others. As consumers, it is OUR responsibility to do some homework and pick the circuit that best fits our needs. For me, the "membership fee" should provide me with some added value like a GOOD magazine, three boats at the TOC or 100% payback of entry fees at each event. And, I'd much rather pay the membership fee than go back to the "good ol days"!)

.....NaCl

NaCl · Post by **NaCl** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:42 am

The imposition of an extra $35 to $45 adds "cost" to a tournament, when its spread over an entire 6 or 7 event circuits, is not much per event. But, if some guys wanted to be one-lake wonders and cherry pick events that came to their favorite lake, the membership fees adds to their cost. In some cases, it discourages them from fishing and protects the guys who are dedicated to participating in an entire circuit.

.....NaCl

Blue_R70 · Post by **Blue_R70** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:45 am

NaCl wrote:(The above scenario is NOT fiction! It is a list of the kinds of issues that bass fishing tournaments have ALREADY experienced to evolve into what we have today. In the 70's, bass events did not have rules about "trolling". They did not have rods limited to 8 feet. The very first tournaments used shotgun starts.

And didn't the anglers have to provide their own stringers as well?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:58 am

I think Hutch is right on with this thing.

If you break it down (and I have -- even prior to working for AC/Basswest) they are all about the same. Even those claiming they are paying back more than the others are still in it to make money and making the same amount as the rest. I refuse to believe and won't believe anyone who claims they pay back all the money that the angler's put into it. There are administrative fees, late fees, insurance fees, membership fees etc. etc. and more that all need added up if you are going to do a comparison. Not to mention trying to factor in the different levels of prizes at the TOC. It's all a matter of perception and the guys running these events are either good at that perception or not.

Where Hutch has it most correct is that NO tournament organization that I know of is making a large amount of money. Granted I am not doing anyone's books - (Hell I can't even keep my own checkbook balanced) but, I've done enough of the math to know that based solely on the income from tournaments nobody is moving to Maui and retiring soon. Most of the orgs, and I could probably even say ALL of the Orgs, are in the business because they love the sport and like offering something they feel is a great deal for the anglers.

As far as the membership fees - the way I see it is these orgs need to pay for their office staff, website and website development, Periodicals (Bass West USA, Won, etc.), membership cards, etc. etc.

As for AC ===========================
By no means is this bashing another org I am just stating what I feel you get from your membership fees with our Org

1. You get 10% off at the stores (Oroville Outdoors and Clear Lake Outdoors) -- This in itself can recoop your $35 over the course of the year.

2. Membership fees help pay for the two boats that are given away at the TOCs and this year there are even more chances to win a boat... stay tuned for that information.

3(a) You also get Bass West for a year. Now I am a bit biased but, I have heard from many people all over the US that think it is the best Bass Mag on the market. The recent advertising growth validates this theory as well. (No need to start bashing it... we all know there are a few of you that will bash anything!)

3(b) You get coverage in Bass West both in the AC section and the rest of the mag. We try to include AC pro's in as many areas as we can. I know that there are at least 15 guys from the pro ams that have done pro columns and/or feature articles and that continues to grow. There are also full articles and standings from many of the events with many anglers names and info. Although, this is Bass West we do have a very large national subscription base - so it is National exposure. For guys looking to move up in this sport, this national exposure is priceless. For example: Although, he is now a friend of mine and I don't mean to throw his name around but, look at what it has done for Matt Newman - Sure he can fish, but now he is a household name across much of the bass fishing industry. Same goes for John Harper, and Jim Davis. Mike Tuck has had tons of exposure from it as well. We were the first to do a story on John Billheimer, Kyle Grover, Cody Meyer, Rus Snyders. Brent Ehrler prior to becoming world champ was getting great exposure. Gabe Bolivar, Dave Rush, Ken Mah - (Jared Lintner and James Niggemeyer, Justin Lucas) are in the mail now) Even more are slated to hit the pages of Bass West in 2007... including guys like Mark Meddock, the team of Hage and Seals and many more. The list goes on and will continue to grow. Granted this exposure is not covering EVERYONE that has an AC membership - but, it certainly is covering some and the numbers getting the national exposure are growing with each issue.

Honestly, I feel you get well more than your $35 worth with an AC membership. Spend $350 a year in tackle store at the same or better prices than you find anywhere else and you recoop that $35 right there. FYI, to get your discount you just need to tell them you are an AC member and show them your membership card.

OK I am Off the AC Soap box ======================

With most orgs you are getting your $$$ worth with your membership fee's. Won Bass has their periodicals and although its only partially bass fishing - its all FISHING and one thing is for sure, everyone on this site enjoys fishing. They also cover guys from the west in it as well. Now if I can just somehow get Kramer to stir the pot a little more! ha ha ha

Another thing I think Hutch nailed was that most orgs make their money in other ways - I know AC has the Tackle Shops and WON has their periodicals, FLW and Bassmaster has their Mags, TV shows and large sponsors, National Bass West has their big sponsors as well (Aim Marine, etc). --- I am sure that these other ventures helps each of the orgs make running these tournaments worth it.

I like to see it like Hamburgers - You may like Wendy's or In and Out or Burger King - I like McDonalds... Some are $1 and others are $4, some have lettuce and tomato and others have a special sauce.... some come with a paper crown and others a kids a toy... Buy the one YOU want, and for every individual that is going to be a different burger. But, rest assured all of these burger joints are making more money than any fishing org!

DARN! --- that's a good thought, Hey Mendez - Let's open a burger joint! There's gotta be more money in that and I can make some mean fries!

To summarize - Just pay the $35 - $40 to whatever org you plan on fishing and have some fun -- after all this is supposed to be a fun activity!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:04 pm

Hey Dean - I am not sure I've ever met you... but that was darn good right there!!!

ash · Post by **ash** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:32 pm

NaCl wrote:The imposition of an extra $35 to $45 adds "cost" to a tournament, when its spread over an entire 6 or 7 event circuits, is not much per event. But, if some guys wanted to be one-lake wonders and cherry pick events that came to their favorite lake, the membership fees adds to their cost. In some cases, it discourages them from fishing and protects the guys who are dedicated to participating in an entire circuit.

.....NaCl

Think this nails it, not only does it cover admin cost it protects the anglers who are dedicated to an event.

All good points, me personaly I wish there was no membership fee so I could cherry pick because I dont have the time and resources to commit to a full schedule. That darn Membership fee of 50.00 on top of the nut keeps me from looking at that.

As far as no membership to folsom, I just wish it was another lake!

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:55 pm

We could have a 300% payback
ooops I just figured out that 300 times what i have been winning is still $0000.00
Keep up the good work Tom you are a great addition to the AC staff in all of your efforts there.

Jim

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:20 pm

Thanks Jim!

And that reminds me... Jim had a great Article about him turning Pro @70 in the mag which was well deserved and a direct result of him fishing Angler's Choice and spending $35... or did you get the over 55 discount $34.99!

That article was before I joined the AC/Basswest team... but, I remember the article well and like it! I knew who Jim Conlow Sr. was well before I ever ventured north of the grapevine in pursuit of better bass!

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:50 pm

But I think Anglers Choice and Bass West Magazine as good as it has always been is much improved since you have come on board.
You show yourself to be a stand up guy when you give credit where credit is due to the other tournament orgs who are in direct compitition with AC.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:44 pm

I am tired of this underhanded attempt to match every other team trails paybacks with 100% BASS and say they are all close.

I challenge every team trail out there to a simple opening of the books.
I will show a true 100% of all entry fees and options paid back at the RAMP, while most of you cant reach 70%. some are even worse than that. If you are not willing to do this, then stop trying to say how good your paybacks are tell the truth.....THEY STINK

PUT UP OR SHUT UP

Bob Kornhauser
100% BASS

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:37 pm

in mother lode bass, since we are an unaffiliated club, we used the membership to help offset the annual $460 insurance costs

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:39 pm

The whole name of your circuit is an out and out lie!
100% mean 1 - 0 - 0 percent! Not 100% of what you want to count....

What about all the fees associated with the event as well Bob. Are you paying those all back too?

I fished one of your Pro Ams and Paid an a $5 Insurance Fee plus a $25 late Fee and a $40 Membership fee. That was $70 bucks.. Did that hit the payback as well? Considering over 1/2 of the field of every tournament I have ever run or been to has signed up what you would consider late --- That sure adds up quick.

So lets see I spent - $220 of which you paid back $150 that looks like 68% of my money was paid back! PLAIN HARD FACTS!

I think it's you who are trying to bluff people. Your payback is good, no doubt, but to be honest its not all that much better than ANY other trail. Not to mention the Membership Fees and what you get for it or TOC payouts etc... Its all the same - I am sure you are making a small amount of money somewhere just like the rest of the orgs.

I am defending AC or WOn Bass or anyone for that matter... I am just tired of your smoke and mirrors. All the orgs are about the same when you factor it all in! Some have great single event paybacks and nothing for membership and extra fees for everything... others have great TOC's decent weekly paybacks and good press... And others have other ways to balance it all out. If I caught big fish.. I'd hope I was fishing ABA... IF I won a TOC I would hope I was fishing AC... If I had one good tournament all year... I'd hope I was fishing 100%... If I owned a Ranger and did well I'd probably hope I was fishing Won Bass... All hamburgers... different fixins... Time to come out of the clouds Bob and join us back down here on earth..... WHEN YOU GIVE IT ALL BACK.. then call us out like that!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:43 am

Tom: I never said I count memberships in my payback just like you or any other trail does not. It is the only source of revenue outside of sponsors any tournament trail has, unless they start DIPPING in to the payback. The simple truth is this. I stated above We pay back 100% of all entry fees and options and that is a FACT. Again.. You didnt have to pay a late fee if you simply sent your money in on time. If you would get YOUR head out of the SMOKE, you would admit the real truth along with every other team trail out there. simply open up your payback to the general public and show them the truth. If you think 50, 60 or 70% is close to 100% then your math skills need some serious work. By the way, notice I have always said, AT THE RAMP. Make sure you are very careful about what you say before you make claims you cant support.

Bob Kornhauser
100% BASS

PS... Stop arguing with me and start paying attention to you own bussiness. I think BASS WEST is needing to be shipped, AGAIN

PSS....just so there is no confusion....Publicly, I have many times commended A/C for having 2 boats at their championship, not challenged their integrity over where the money comes from to pay for them. I have always recomended anglers fish A/C as a second choice to 100% as a result of those boats. While your payback is a distance 2nd to ours, it is still much better than most.
So, put that in you pipe and smoke it.

MikeD · Post by **MikeD** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:22 am

TomLeogrande wrote: I fished one of your Pro Ams and Paid an a $5 Insurance Fee plus a $25 late Fee and a $40 Membership fee. That was $70 bucks.. Did that hit the payback as well? Considering over 1/2 of the field of every tournament I have ever run or been to has signed up what you would consider late --- That sure adds up quick.

So lets see I spent - $220 of which you paid back $150 ...

<miked dons flame suit, and seriously questions why he is choosing to respond to this, but respond he does...>

first off - I don't fish either AC or 100%, and I don't know either you or Korny other than reading your stuff here on the board.

I read the above and thought I'd chime my .02 in on what my payback expectations would be for fishing 100% (or any tourny for that matter).

$5 insurance - I wouldn't expect to see a payback on this, if the $5 is slotted for insurance then that goes against my share of a fixed tournament expense.

$40 membership fee - this is a one time fee that is not specific to this event, kind of like a cover charge at a club to get me in the door. I wouldn't expect to see payback from this.

$25 late fee - By its nature a late fee is designed to add an amount of pain to help encourage someone to play nice in the sandbox. By sending in my payment late, or paying at the ramp I've added a workload to the organizers at the worst possible time for them. Should this go into the payout pot?? I think this one could go either way, but I'd be ok with this being paid as an administrative fee and not part of the payout pot. The organizer is the one feeling the pain with the late payment - is it a ton of work to add someone at the last minute? probably not, but there are other more productive things the organizer could be doing with his time than dealing with someone who is late.

So then I'd expect a payout pot of $150 x some number of participants, if the organizer chose to add the $25 late fee into the pot then that would be a bonus - maybe payout a few more places, etc. However, I *would* expect that the organizer clearly spell out what monies are in the pot and what are not. That way I could have the info I needed to determine if I wanted to fish the events or not.

I've watched a bit of chirping back and forth between you and Korny here on the forums - we're all here to fish and learn about becoming better anglers, we all appreciate the time and energy you both put in to providing tournament opportunities for us. It would be great if we could raise the bar here and keep things professional. Marty originally wanted to open a dicussion on expectations for your membership fees when you join a Bass Organization, and indicated that he was hesitant to open a can of worms. Lets keep it on topic

Bill Hutcheson · Post by **Bill Hutcheson** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:32 am

Lock and Load boys....

I feel like Kevin Costner in the opening scenes of "Dances with Wolves" by making this response - Riding out in front of the lines for all to shoot at me. However, I think that something very important which illustrates all that goes on with what I mentioned in my previous post on this topic has just happened with Korny's post regarding his paybacks. Pay close attention here as the "smoke and mirrors" just got blown away. Here it goes, so everyone take your best shot.

For starters Bob, take a Midol. No, take two. No one in this string was ever impuning your payback or taking a shot at you or your organization, so I'm not sure why you've jumped out of the bushes and opened fire unless you are somehow worried that fishermen are going to learn the truth. Furthermore, thank you for coming out and stating exactly what I was trying to illustrate. As you have mentioned just a few posts prior, you payback 100% of your entry fees and options. Great, outstanding, congratulations to you.

Tom though is dead on correct in his assertion that all anglers fishing your events must pay those additional fees to play. In reality, you are simply hiding your expenses somewhere else other than the entry fees. While others organizations such as WON BASS may chose to take those fees directly out of the entry instead of tacking them on elsewhere, you chose to impose "additional fees" to your entrants. Once again, the paybacks remain roughly the same Bob. So, your $150 entry fee has an additional $70 of costs. At WON BASS, our $120 entry fee has $45 of costs deduced from it with no additional fees imposed. I could go through all the tournament Orgs and break it down, but I'm just trying to tell the truth here and avoid a pissing match. (Good Luck to me as I can't wait for the following replies to come!)

If 100% is what it is all about, it is very easy for every organization to simply restructure thier cost mechansims and do the same as you and have a 100% payback of all entry fees. Again, its all smoke and mirrors - it is still one pie, it's just how you slice it!

I don't want to further belabor this topic and I hope that we can all get off our soapboxes before we fall off and twist an ankle. We all try to run the best tournaments we can. We all have costs associated with doing buisiness, and we all have to make a profit to survive. Anyone who thinks otherwise has been spreading too much "Smelly Jelly" on thier PBJ sanwiches at the lake. And should anyone think otherwise, I would fully encourage them to start a tournament organization of thier own.

No if you wil excuse me, I have to make my way to the bomb shelter to hide from the incoming rounds which are bound to result from the truth being told.

Bill Hutcheson
WON BASS

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:59 am

...Thanks for being there for guys like me who want to compete!

You each provide a service for which you are seriously underpaid, and by providing tournaments you make an important and positive impact on my life!

I can do math and decide if it makes sense for me to enter any tournament. Heck, I sometimes enjoy entering ones that don't make mathematical sense, but nobody is holding a gun to my head (and I have made decisions for reasons other than payback before).

The key is that I am a big boy and I enjoy fishing the tournaments that you make available for me! Without you there are no tournaments for me to enjoy. I love you guys and gals, and you can have my Bud Light too!

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

gt5bass · Post by **gt5bass** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:14 am

I concur Marc. Thanks to ALL the tourney orgs for giving me the opportunity to fish competitive events.

Being that membership fees are perhaps the smallest segment of my tournament expenses, I don't even bat an eye at them. I have had years where I paid more for fishing licenses than for membership fees.

Now if I could only get tackle stores (perhaps my biggest segment of expenses) to lock there doors when I come to town, I could probably fish a tourney every weekend

RichThiel · Post by **RichThiel** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:36 am

Bill,

You stated that out of $120.00, $45.00 is deducted. That right there bother's me

Rich Thiel

Sean Graf · Post by **Sean Graf** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:57 am

I don't think that Won Bass takes $45.00 out of the $120.00, I think he meant they take $15.00 out of the $120.00 to cover their expenses.

I think that Bill is dead on though, there was no reason for Korny to come out firing, I see nothing that should have brought that on.

Could these organizatons survive if they didn't charge a fee? What if Korny kept the payback at 100%, and decided to not charge a membership or late fee, what if WON decided to not charge a membership fee and decided to not take $15.00 per team?

The answer is simple.... NO, they wouldn't be able to survive.

The American way is to make money, and I think every organization should make money, just be up front about it, that goes alot farther than anything else.

BTW, I say everyone fishing the new 100% big boy circuit should be charged a $5.00 finders fee, and that money should be sent to Tom Leogrande for laying the foundation.

Sean

sTony · Post by **sTony** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:20 am

It'd be nice if you guys running these different organizations would just agree to put out your programs and let others decide where they're going to compete.

In fairness, the 100% BASS standard late fee is or at least was $10. You can avoid that fee by simply getting your entry in before the tournament date. Pro ams and specialty events were charged a higher late fee and that was exactly what Redman/BFL did when they were out West but again those fees can be waived off by getting your money in prior to the event date. And the bottomline is if you don't like the fees then you shouldn't be fishing those events. I'd also point out that several other organizations if not most charge a late fee when you pay up the day of the tournament. And Tom, any other org pretty much has a cutoff date for their Pro Am tournaments including BASS, FLW, WON BASS and Angler's Choice so you wouldn't have even been allowed to jump into a tournament in your own backyard AND having to pay a premium to do so apparently seemed worthwhile to you at that time so why even bring it up now?

Korny started charging an insurance fee after 9/11 when all of our insurance fees went through dramatic increases. It was the only way to keep paying back 100% of your entry fee and option money and not completely losing money every time he ran a tournament. Setting the price at $5 is a money losing proposition in some small regions and a money making proposition in other regions so it tends to be a wash in the end.

Also, there are other orgs that charge other fees also and they don't come into the payback equation so let's please get away from the stone throwing. All Korny has ever stated was that 100% BASS pays back 100% of entry fees and option money.

Orgs with periodicals such as magazines or newspapers also generally make their dollars on their paying advertisers within those mediums and rarely can turn a profit based on subscriptions alone. This is the case in nearly all subscription format periodicals. However, what they do gain is subscription numbers which is awfully important to get bigger dollars from your advertisers. The higher the subscription rate the higher the ad rate, which is why you see orgs like BASS basically giving away the magazine to maintain high subscription rates and therefore higher advertising rates.

These orgs all have their own ways of conducting business and all are worth a look see or a trial run to find the ones that best fit your expectations.

It'd be welcome to see these threads stay on course. Most all of the orgs charge a membership fee so let's stay on topic and not stray into a battle as no one wins in that scenario and you all come away with battle scars. No one is begrudging anyone the ability to make a buck except maybe, and unaware at that, the original poster in this thread.

sTony

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:33 am

Why can't we as the consumer demand to see the books? I have posted this before.

At the end of the tournament, you should be able to look at a list and see who was in what option and who was paid what and what cut the org took. At the end of the season, I think each org should post their books on their site. They should state how much membership fees were collected, how much in entry fees were paid, how much option and misc fees were collected, and any other monies in income. Then they should report on where the $$ went. How much really went to over head? How much went to DFG? How much was paid back? This act would make anglers more comfortable and end this topic forever.

Bill Hutcheson · Post by **Bill Hutcheson** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:57 am

Rich,

That's Correct. The breakdown is as follows:

$120 - Entry Fee

$15 - WON Administration (Salaries, Computers, Trophies, DFG Permits, Insurance, live release boats, etc...... )
$15 - Year End North and South Team Championships (Each paid out around 60K in 2006)
$15 - Tournament Director (They don't work for free, and this is not much when you consider all they put into an event)
Of course, any and all options are fully paid back 100% and the remainder of the entry fees, is paid back to the anglers.

These are fixed costs. Of course, we can raise entry fees and the payback will go up accordingly as we don't take any more than $45 out of the entry fee. This is up toi the anglers to decide.

There it is boys - Open books, no smoke, no mirrors. You called me out and you got it. That should be the end of that!

Again, we can play all sorts of games, calling various things fees and such, but we are up front with it all. If you want 100% payback, not a problem. Just be wary that we will have all sorts of fees for you to pay come time to enter. Call them whatever you like, but they will equal $45 bucks at every event.

Hutch
WON BASS

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:10 pm

No need to continue this argument on the forum.

Just 100% isn't exactly 100% now is it?

Like you I recommend anglers fish as many trails as they can. Truth of the matter is that all the circuits payback about the same over the course of the year. The little extra you pay at each event gets made up for at the TOC's. Etc.. Etc.. The numbers are all out there.. Do the math on last years circuits.. Factor about 75-80% are in the options and then do the math on all the circuits. Its a lot of work but, you'll see when you are all done that they all end up being pretty close.

PS. As for my job. Don't you worry that mag has been mailed. Advertisers are up..... Subscriptions are up... and the magazine still rocks!

PSS. When do I get my membership card for 100% (68%) Bass? and my magazine or newsletter or paper should be here when?

Brian Linehan · Post by **Brian Linehan** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:31 pm

All of this drama is bullsh+t! Man, I don't know about y'all but I'm still trying to recover from the "great off limts debate." This finger pointing is not good.

Each org has its positves and negatives I guess. It's that simple.

Most important, NEVER BURN A BRIDGE! We are such a small niche that you will have to face that person/s again someday and you don't want to feel awkward when you see them again.

Then again, what the hell do I know?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:38 pm

Hey sTony -
Korny has a good thing going, I can't and won't take that away from him. Like I said.. I'd fish it, have fished it and I have recommended it in the past. In the past, I've even worked with some of the better anglers on his tours for the magazine.

I think for each angler there is a tournament trail for them. I have been very unbiased in my points I have made on this thread and stated only facts -- no mud slinging... nothing just simple math pay in $220 get back $150 thats not 100%. I made no pro-AC statements --- Just Pro All Tournament trails -- Stating they are all ABOUT the same. Which you know what... is a true statement!

However, Korny keeps throwing out that nobody matches his paybacks.. and that simply isn't true. Maybe nobody matches it when you only count the money from entry fees and options... and you only count the single event payback. I couldn't just stand by and watch that mud get slung at the rest of us again.

Its really simple actuallt... if you do the math and I invite anyone to do it... factor in a whole region set of events plus the TOC payback and count up all the entry fees, and all the fees associated... (Consider 80% are in the options and 50% are late signups) you will see all the orgs are ABOUT the same give or take a little!

Like I keep saying just another hamburger with different fixins.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:41 pm

Hey Brian -

That's exactly what I am trying to say -

Every trail is about the same --- some good at one thing. Others good at another. You won't read anywhere in any of my posts that AC is #1. I am simply stating that they are all ABOUT the same give or take a little.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:47 pm

Hey Sean -

Thanks but, its all good. It's Korny's now and he is putting a lot of hard work into it. I am excited to see how it all works out. The winner of that trail is going to be one well rounded team! Sounds like there are quite a few guys signed up for it.

I may or may not fish it...I am still working on my schedule for the 2007 season and Korny may not let me fish it after this thread. I was excited to have it an entire state.. since I am originally from Socal... but, I think the norcal only will still work great for guys!

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:58 pm

Jim Conlow Sr. · Post by **Jim Conlow Sr.** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:23 pm

I think it would be easy for the orgs to add another column to their result postings here on NCBF to indicate who entered into the options and who did not.
I recognize and totally accept that these guys need to make a profit. I really want them to make huge profits so that they can stay in business. But I quit buying into the options a long time ago simply because I do not like the lack of an accounting.

Brian · Post by **Brian** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:07 pm

TomLeogrande wrote:No need to continue this argument on the forum.

Then why the hell do you have 5 more post on this subject after you typed this?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:13 pm

Actually - only a couple more posts...

One in Reply to Brian Linehan and one in Reply to sTony but, who's counting.

That was my last response to Korny...

By the way - Brian who?

Gator · Post by **Gator** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:30 pm

OK Kids -

This is about to get old. Let's all agree to disagree and move on. Until we have an organization that has the marketing savvy to get all their bills paid by sponosrs, plus make profit, this debate will go on forever.

Do you walk into a McDonald's and tell them you don't wat to pay 99 cents for that double cheeseburger because you don't want to pay for their labor? If you do, good for you.

I simply illustrate this becuse I am tired of heariing all of the bashing/whining. Does 100% BASS pay back 100 percent of their entry fees and options? YES. Do they charge additional fees to cover expenses? YES. Do other tounrament orgs - WON, AC, NBW, etc - charge these same fees? Yes they do, just not in the same manner. It is simple - it is passing on expenses to the consumer. If you don't want the expense, don't consume.

I can say this as I have fished WON Pro-Ams, AC Pro-Am's and 100% Pro-Am's. I payed my money and I took my chances. That's it, Simple. As Marc said, I can do the math. Do it for yourself and choose which one works best for you.

I will add this as well. Who here is willing to pay a little more for a quality product? I see you all here talking about how you will pay $15 for a Lucky Craft bait because it is the best. Why not pay $4.99 for an off name bait that is similar? Because you are getting a BETTER product. My advice (for what it is worth, I assume that and $4.00 will get you a StarBucks) is to fish all the org's, then decide which one gave you the highest quality product for your money. That is pretty simple.

OK, I am off to watch two weeks worth of TiVo'ed shows, you guys play nice.

Rich hamilton · Post by **Rich hamilton** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:54 pm

At lake sign ups are a nightmare to administer so the "late fee" was a punitive alternative. membership fee's only hurt organizations by reducing participation at least 20% in my opinion.
some people like the newspaper/magazine's as others use them to line the cat box with. Everyone has their own opinion.

Shotguns @ the jamboree; as we read these arguments and rebutals it was quickly apparent to me the losers are the fisherman.

now at the big show level bass and flw conflict on "off limit dates" I would like people to ponder "are we really fishing to make money"? if you do the math the answer is quickly apparent.

I respond to honesty, being treated well on the phone as well as the ramp and the weigh-in. It is amazing how a few little things can make a team's day after they just tanked on the water. it begins with hot something and dog nuts in the morning and ends with some potential raffle at the concusion to help motivate people to hang around to support the check cashing teams. being quick with the results and awards go miles with anglers. Spend some quality money on the WOOD. it is a reminder of a lifetime memory.

My biggest frustration is looking at organization sponsor pages and not seeing ANYTHING go back to the anglers. This my friends is the true motherlode and if we are speeking honestly, where are all those sponsor advertising dollars going?

Fish for fun and forget the numbers it will only drive you crazy!

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