Who Catches The Fish, Guide or Client ????

[Guy Kelley]

Seems to me that most Pict's I see posted. The Guide is the one in the front holding up the big uns for the photo opp ! (See my Question Melonie's vs. Pedro)

Yes I have seen the Pict's of the kids in the back of boat and adults holding up there's too.

Is it just me or is there something to my thought that the guide is responsible for more and bigger fish caught in the boat on any certain day or time of year than the non boater or client ? And the client is more of a guy or gal who helps the guide with the boat expenses and the cash flow that allows the guide to spend more time on the water fishing there passion ?

I am not trying to cause controversy or say that they are ripping folks off. far from it ! and if you think that re-read my question !

But if you are not a pro ! how else would you have a system that would allow you to fish hundreds of day's a year and be able to do it under normal conditions and still afford it considering the cost of running a boat and all cost associated with the expenses of fishing so much at today's cost ?

I know, I have a bass boat and it's a easy $100.00 bucks a day just to be on the water . When ya add every thing up !

The guide must have a larger cost then the hobbyist, considering boat payment, equipment, insurance and other cost of running a business plus trying to make a profit. If they are any good they must pay attention to the guest and put them on fish or at least try to. So the rate of return guest and reputation increases so the business continues to grow.

So who is more than likely going to catch the big un and fill out the limit. Guide or Client ? The other question, do guides fish as pros in regular tournaments and Pro/ams ? If so what is rate of there success ! Dose this seem ethical if they are ! Are they more than likely going to be in the top 10 who can case a check ?

Sorry if this rattles your cage, but it's just some random thoughts and looking for some insight !

[mac (Doyle McEwen)]

It pretty much varies from guide trip to guide trip as well as guide to guide..Some guides do not wet a line at all unless asked to, others may in order to insure they have indeed found the fish..I would venture to say a good guide would have a better chance in local tournaments than do many of the competitors..But even then, he/she still has to not only find the fish, they have to catch them..I haven't used a paid guide yet, although I have had the opportunity to fish with a few of them in other than guide trip situations..Do they catch more of the bigger fish, than do the clients, probably, although a lot of the bigger fish you see in some of those pictures were caught when they were out fun fishing..

mac

[Oldschool]

Most bass fishing guides use live bait, unless they know the bass are biting lures or the client requested using lures. With live bait the giude can effectively catch bass with inexperienced anglers and use more rods at same time. The guide will often hook a bass and hand off the rod to the clients. A good giude should always let his or her clients catch the big bass, it pays off in tips.
You don't want to know how I feel about giudes over harvesting our small trophy bass lakes!
Tom

[g-man]

If you dont want the guide fishin on your trip you should let him know this ahead of time. You should always have a talk with the guide you are hiring to let him/her know exactly what you want out of the trip so there are no surprises. I think it is more benificial if you let the guide fish so that you can see how hes doing it, and have a better learning expierance. A good guide will do his best to get you on some good fish. IMHO

As far as guides fishing tourneys, they are fishing in a pro/open series which they are eligable to fish! I see nothing wrong with that...

[FATGUY]

reply for old school... i've been out with several guides over my years and have never had one want to use live bait. unless you especially request this . also i've never had a guide hook a fish and then hand me the rod to reel the fish into the boat .!!! that would be an insult and i'd never use them again .. bob g

[Ceaser]

A guide is gonna have return clients and positive review from clients catching big ones. I think sometimes it may have to do with casting/presentation accuracy if the guide sticks the good one. Telling the client to put a bait somewhere cuz u know theres a good one there and they cant hit the spot must be frustrating.. especially if he throws in there after and sticks it! lol gotta be a heart breaker for both parties. And as for tournaments... imagine spending all those day on the water and having to catch fish everyday, then having to do it on the weekend for a tourney! thats gotta be harder than pre fishin, shakin off the bites and coming back. They need endless amounts of fish. My hats off to guys like Bobby and Cooch that put in weekday time with clients catching fish then comin out and cashing checks on the weekends too. Wish i had that many fish dialed! Just wish those guys would quite stealing my "secret" spots!

[Joe Bruce]

since john is the only guide with pics in that thread i guess your talking about him. Id bet $100 not one of them pics was during a guide trip. John fishes by himself or with buddy's often, even prefishes for guidetrips.

seems every time i tell him about a toad i catch he tells me how he doesn't get to fish on guide trips or only gets to tri now and then threw the day. I can guarantee you and maybe a client or two of his will back me up if there's an opportunity for a big one he will give it to his client

[Trackerbass]

Clearly you're refering to Johnny C. I have fished with him and would not hesitate to hire him again. He did fish some but mostly he was telling us what to do and explaining why we were doing it. Exactly what I was paying for. When he did pick up a rod, it was when the bite had slowed. He would try a different style or color or size bait to get em going again. He did happen to catch the biggest fish that day. On the first cast with a new size and color jig. Good for him, I had NO problem with that.
I have also fished with another well known guide who I won't name. He fished all day from the front of the boat,rarely even turning around to talk to me. Took the first cast at every rock, bluff or stick up! I had to ask him if I could please have a new worm when it just wouldn't stay on the hook anymore. The topper was when he told me to stop casting so close to the cover because I was hanging up too much! Worst money I ever spent on fishing!
I guess what I'm saying is some are good and some aren't. Do your homework before hiring a guide. The best trips I've had the guide didn't fish much. When they did it was usually a lesson.

[aNNieNsaLTIE]

I hired Barrack 4 times in 1 year. 1 for Striped Bass and the 3 for season related fishing. I wanted the guy to fish.

I could throw a frog on the suggested equipment, I can read how it's suppose to be done, BUT SEEING IT DONE AND BEING ABLE TO ASK ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME............

for example a frog tirp.......... we both throwing frogs trying to figure out what the pattern was..... we find a pattern and the quality of fish supports his theroy... so we stick to the pattern. we find the perfect blend of cover relating to our pattern. Bobby say, "steve make that cast"...fish on.........

We all know what were suppose to do with a senko right??? and most of us have tons of senkos......But then to go out with a well know guide who cashes a check... I sure want to see it with my own eyes how it's done and what i need to do differently..............

Steven Ng

[Paul Matthews]

I am A guide for The Hookup Outfitters in Az. I rarely pick up a rod and can assure you that my clients catch 99% of the fish including an 8.25 that one of them boated at Pleasant. The only time I pick up a rod is to demonstrat a particular technique. Guides that fish are doing a big diservice to their clients. Hell I know I can catch them. The deal is to find them so that your clients can enjoy their trip. Sometimes that is easier said than done.

[adsq4]

I hired a guide once and it seemed to me that he was more concerned about him catching fish then either my dad or I. Frustarting when u are bieng "backseated" by your guide...

[g-man]

Guides that fish are doing a big diservice to their clients. Hell I know I can catch them. The deal is to find them so that your clients can enjoy their trip. Sometimes that is easier said than done.

It depends on what you are looking for, and many guys (Tourney guys) are not so interested in catchin! They are more interested in learning from a proven fisherman. (guide) There is absolutely nothing wrong with a guide fish'in too.

Communicate with the guide, and tell them what you want from your trip. If you don't want them to fish they won't. I'd be surprised if they do on your dollars! Speak up..

[Cooch]

It should always be "client first", yet there are times, as others have mentioned, every situation and session is different. I get asked, or told, "just fish Cooch", a lot, because the majority of my clients are in the boat with me, to learn how to better attack this Delta and want to see for themselves how it's done, boat position, presentation mechanics, it's an on the water classroom for them. I get very few of the "Pleasure" fishing trips where I just get to play chauffer. Even on those days when I do fish, I'm not playing the vacume cleaner, it's just not prudent for me ta do so. Yet when I do cast, it's with the intent of leaving the key spots for the client and pointing those out as we move down the bank. Most of the time, when I git bit, I don't set, with the intent to point that bite out to the client, cast right there!

Other times, when the bite is tough, or it seems we're catching smaller fish, I may do something completely different out away from the areas I have the client fishing, looking for that "other" bite. Many times, this is where I'll stumble onto that giant fish we catch fer the day. Kinda like Monday's trip, I found this bank that had a lot of smaller fish up snappin, I started fishing 15 feet further out away from the concentration of fish, letting the clients have at it. I caught one fish to their ten, although it was indeed the biggest at 3.5 lbs. Our next pass, I had them fish deeper, they then started to catch a little bigger fish as I watched. Then as we traversed a long stretch with nothing, I picked up a buzz bait and hurled it way up onto a flat. 20 feet away, I saw a rumble in the tulles and a huge wave came charging at my buzzer, I burned it back to the boat,and that fish turned and went back into that tulle clump. I then yelled at the client to grab his bird and huck it up behind that tulle clump, there's a giant bass in there feeding. He picked up his Bird, chucked it in there, I told him ta just let it sit and don't move it, then the toilet flushed, Heart break as he set way too soon and that beast went on it's way. I put my buzzbait down, they started chucking the Birds up on the flats and started getting blow ups. Job done, had I not picked up that buzzbait, we'd have not stumbled onto that bite right then and there.

Another example is when the bite is tough, or slows down, it's nearly impossible to judge how the bite is when clients are not catching them, when I know we're in an area that is holding fish. So I will pick up my rod and probe. If I catch one right away, now I gotta instruct and pay closer attention to what the client's "not" doing, in an effort to get them on the bite. If they truely arent biting, I know it's time to make some sort of an adjustment. That's how I stumbled onto that giant on Monday, we went back down that same bank as the tide was filling near the top. I couldn't see the weedline we had been previously fishing, so I cast my jig up in there to get a perspective of the strike zone. During my probe, as I was draggin that jig out deeper, like 15 foot, she ate. That kills me, I did not need to catch that fish, they were supposed to catch it, yet under the conditions had I kept just guiding with the t-motor, I would have had them on top of the fish and they wouldn't have caught em anyhow. We back off, I put the jig rod down, they catch a couple nicer fish out deeper after that. Every day is different, the exceptional guide, will recognize and reap the rewards of fishing for the client, when he does fish.

There is absolutely nothing unethical Guy, with a guide fishing tournaments! He actually, is at a disadvantage versus the pro who comes into town and puts 10 straight days or practice on the water. Guides tend to have too much water, too many choices, they also have areas that they pound through out the week, sticking every fish, many that won't bite come the weekend. Where a guide has proven to have an advantage over the years, and this is on any body of water across this country, is when there are weather changes or some condition that he recognizes long before the rest of the field. Certainly we have seen many guides win or place in a top 5 while fishing the big BASS & FLW tournaments back east and in the south, but they don't neccessarily win em all. One of the reasons I stopped tourney fishing, I couldn't protect good spots when I had a client out during the week of a tournament. We're going to my best water, it is a tough balance for me to protect tournament water from my clients, so my tournament results tend to suffer.

[Riplip]

Ditto Joe Bruce's comment. Johnny C rarely fishes on a guide trip unless asked. Those pics are from fishing with buddys or solo. Like Cooch said, it's all about the client.

[Revoke36]

I don't view it as how many fish me or the guide is catching. It's all about gaining knowledge. I would be more upset if the guide pulled up to a honey hole and said "knocke em out". I want information and lots of it. That's where the value is. However, if you're a non boater that hires a guide annually to rack up some fish, I would just save my pennies and go to El Salto. I hear ya arm gets pretty darn sore down there

[Oldschool]

reply for old school... i've been out with several guides over my years and have never had one want to use live bait. unless you especially request this . also i've never had a guide hook a fish and then hand me the rod to reel the fish into the boat .!!! that would be an insult and i'd never use them again .. bob g

Where I fish in SoCal on small trophy bass lakes the majority of guides fish with live bait. The explosion of trophy bass guides started around the boom period of 1980 at Castiac and Casitas, before that time there were very few bass fishing guides.
Instructional guides are usually hired by clients that want to learn how to fish a particular presentation or learn to use electronics, like Cooch or Iovino. Most instructional guides are professional bass anglers and most are tournament anglers.
I base my statements on sharing the water and observing both the trophy and instructional guides over the past 30 years.
When I say live bait it's guides using shad nets with bait tanks or buckets of crawdads and water dogs* and anchoring on prime spots with 2 or 3 clients. I have had many conflicts with guides pulling onto areas I'm fishing and anchoring over the years.
Tom
* water dogs are now illegal.

[elfish16]

guiding is touchy for sure. I've taken out some clients and worked hand in hand with a few guides in the area when they were over booked. I always ask them flat out, do you mind me casting, pass the pole, bait or no bait, and such. I've been on trips where the clients were casting all day and fishing, but the bite was brutal. They were sitting around moping so I picked up a rod and kept fishing. I got a big bite next to the boat and that was it...they got up and started fishing themselves again.

When it comes to swimbait fishing you can't be casting along with the clients in my opinion. The first couple casts are usually when the bite occurs, so that is the clients to have. PLUS, i truly believe two baits flying around doesn't do any good. A guide should position the boat on the spot and get things lined up...if the client can't cast, cast for them and then pass the rod for them to reel the bait back in or work it. if they want lessons on fishing it, cast to the non productive spots and show them the techniques...then give them the BEST SHOTS at big ones.

[fish_food]

I have also fished with another well known guide who I won't name. He fished all day from the front of the boat,rarely even turning around to talk to me. Took the first cast at every rock, bluff or stick up! I had to ask him if I could please have a new worm when it just wouldn't stay on the hook anymore. The topper was when he told me to stop casting so close to the cover because I was hanging up too much! Worst money I ever spent on fishing!

I think I know who you're talking about. I've heard the same thing from people who've fished with him and from another guide as well!

reply for old school... i've been out with several guides over my years and have never had one want to use live bait. unless you especially request this . also i've never had a guide hook a fish and then hand me the rod to reel the fish into the boat .!!! that would be an insult and i'd never use them again .. bob g

Why would you be insulted? The person who books that type of trip is just out to have fun and catch fish--they're not out to learn the water, the seasonal patterns, etc. Not everyone fishes for bass as their hobby. The bass fishing trips at the Disneyworld lake comes to mind for this type of trip.

[mmalinao]

I've gone out with 2 guides and I guess I was just really lucky because I had a great time and learned a ton from both!

I for one am a visual learner and I want my guides to fish. I went out with Randy Pringle and had an awesome time! If he seen a spot that he felt held a fish he'd tell me to cast there.

I often watched him and his techniques and asked a ton of questions! Even though he was fishing he constantly was watching what I was doing and offering tips on what I was doing wrong and then would stop everything to show me what my lure was doing underwater so that it made sense what I was doing wrong, huge help!

Same went with Matt Newman, he put me on all of the points and areas he knew held fish etc. Showed me how to read the graph when drop shotting, all kinds of valuable info!!

-Mike

[CN]

It would seem to me if you hire a guide to fish for Largemouth Bass you are wanting to learn more. I have thought about hiring one for a long time on the Delta or one of the Motherlode lakes to learn spot's and how they fish them. I cant see someone hiring one just to go fishing. Bass fishing can be tough and if your wanting to go catch a bunch of fish you may be disapointed and think you wasted your money.

I have my own boat and have bass fished for ever but the way I see it it would be worth the price instead of going out without a clue. I went over to New Melones once and man I had no clue where to start. And yes I see no problem with them fishing as long as your learning something and they are not back seating you.

Mike.

[Johnny C]

Well due to my lure business I have hardly fished this year. I have guided though. I personally have not went after big fish this season nor have I caught one. But my clients have. I usually fish if the have a tourney becuase they want me too. I do on occassion if things are slow to figure things out for my customers. Every day is different. 90% of my business is repeat. Here are a few pictures below are from THIS YEAR caught by my clients. The pictures I posted in the other thread were NOT caught on guide trips. Sorry if this burst your bubble brother. I only posted in that thread because you posted it about these lakes I love.

[Andy Giannini]

I think if you are the client, you should feel like it is your fishing trip.

Not you paying for a trip, with a guide while he spanks the fish and you watch.

But that is different, than instruction and showing you how. Or the guide just making sure that fish are still around.

Also, the guide sticking a good one can get the client back intrested if there hasn't been a bite in awhile.

Guides fishing tournaments? Nothing wrong with that at all.

What I have noticed about tournaments, people only bitch if you win. Otherwise they are fine with you taking last place. Any example can used, guide, sponsor of the event, owner of the circut, veteran pro angler, guy fishing alone in a team event etc.

.02 A.G.

[fishndp]

I have not been out on a bunch of guided trips, but Johnny C. was top notch.
He got us bit in some tough fall transitional fishing.
He wet a line only to show us a technique.
That being said, Johnny sure can fish, I call him a fish magnet.
He did land a few himself while showing us some stuff, but when you're good you're good right.
I hope to and wouldn't hesitate to hire again.

[Mitch]

Fished with a well known guide on Clear Lake and he was more concerned with him catching fish than me. He backseated me all day, constantly casting to the sweet spot and only offered me a worm once during the day. Had almost no ice and not enough water for the day,!! I hired this guy because he's always on here talking about. How well he does, yep HE does. I've noticed he hasn't spoke up yet either. Then at the end of the trip he expected a tip !!! I gave him NADDA !!!

[Guy Kelley]

Thanks for all those who took the time to respond to my question. I have learned a lot from the many replies.

It seems that the majority of the time the guide is more concerned about his client than if he catches a fish or not ! As to instruction ? That's what I had Randy Pringle do for me an my son once on the Delta. I wanted to learn how to pitch an flip. Randy took us out and ran a class on just that. By the end of the day . I would say we had it mastered it well enough to use those two methods at any time we would choose do use them for. Randy did exactly what we wanted and it was well worth the expenses and experience !

For those who responded in the negative about the bad experience you may have had ! Why did you pay for bad service !? No different that having a service for your truck and the problem is not fixed or having a plumber out to you home and the leak is still there and they have there hand out for payment. I ran a contracting business for many years, believe me if I did a bad job. I could not expect to get payed. Until I made it right!

It should be no different with a guide. If you allow bad service and pay for it. Who's fault is that ! A couple of guide trips like that and a post or two about it here would make for a bad day for a guide and a ruin for his reputation. Poof ! No more guiding business !!

[Andy Giannini]

I once had a guide ask for a single rubber worm back at the end of the trip, (off my rod) that he had given me earlier to fish with.

It was one of his sponsors worms, by the way.

A.G.

[fish_food]

Fished with a well known guide on Clear Lake and he was more concerned with him catching fish than me. He backseated me all day, constantly casting to the sweet spot and only offered me a worm once during the day. Had almost no ice and not enough water for the day,!! I hired this guy because he's always on here talking about. How well he does, yep HE does. I've noticed he hasn't spoke up yet either. Then at the end of the trip he expected a tip !!! I gave him NADDA !!!

Haha. Trackerbass posted about similar experience (most likely with the same well known guide) at the beginning of this thread. If it's who I think it is (and your clues lead me to believe so) I've heard the same from acquaintances who also hired him, as well as from another guide.