What do you all think about people following tournament boat

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:00 am

Here is a topic that I've been thinking about for a long time.

How do you all feel about competitors who didnâ€™t make the cut following the cut anglers around to see their spots and techniques?

I have never done this, but I know several anglers (that didnâ€™t make the cut) who make it a practice to follow the leaders around during the cut period to see locations and techniques. I think that it is one thing to follow the Elite Series anglers around but I am talking about another competitor (not a fan) who has plans to take use the information against the angler that they follow.

What are your thoughts?

basstamer · Post by **basstamer** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:07 am

This is a bit off the question you are asking but I talked to Skeet Reese about tagging along behind him @ the upcoming Clear Lake Elite series tournament and he said he has no problem with it as long as nobody gets in his way and that if I or anyone else gets too close he'd "let you know". I think if whoever it is stays back and doesnt make a big commotion most anglers would be ok with it. I can see however a problem if guy "A" makes the cut and guy "B" doesnt and guy "B" follows guy "A" and learns his baits and spots then spouts off about it to everyone he knows but there isnt really much you could do to keep it from happening is there? Some guys would do this though I am sure! Tight Lines
Scott

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:09 am

Hey Basstamer I am talking about your second statement and the follower shows up at the spot the next visit to the lake but you never saw them prior.

Matt Moreau · Post by **Matt Moreau** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:21 am

Well this is a hairy question ricky. Its all about ethics. In a sense though we all do it on some level. I know when i am on the water and i see Sapp, Thomas, Barrack or anyone for that matter i always make a mental note and ask why they are there? What are they doing? What makes that spot special?

But what you are saying is on another level! And i think i would have a problem with it IF they talked about what i was doing and leaked my "pattern" or "Areas" BEFORE the tournament. Heck after the tournament if you get aired everyone knows anyways. But that would be unethical. Although I am sure it happens and i guess as a PRO you have to learn to deal with it in a professional manner.

Just my 2 cents!!!

Tobe · Post by **Tobe** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:29 am

There is no rule against it and I've heard of guys doing it myself so with that said, I would have to say, if you want that kind of reputation in the bass fishing world (very small world) then go for it!

Just remember, what goes around comes around!

Jason Wood · Post by **Jason Wood** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:30 am

I think it's wrong from both standpoints...

#1... I'll probly be fishing while they're out here for the BASS, and I don't want to be running through some narrow slough, come around a corner and find 20 boats scattered about, watching someone fish... It's not very safe to me... I can see a "Classic" repeat, but instead of a bass boat it'll probly be a 40' cruiser... We all know how much they don't care!!!

#2... Free guide service??? Sure it's great to watch celebrities but come on... I'll be at the weigh-ins but you won't catch me chasing someone around to figure out what he's doing and how he's doing it and where i'm gonna be fishing the next weekend...

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:32 am

I am not talking about fans following anglers around, I am talking about a situation where anglers who did not make the cut are following the guys who did.

Over the last couple of years I have seen an incresae in competitors who are doing this to get an edge when they return to the body of water.

Matt Moreau · Post by **Matt Moreau** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:36 am

Yes that is true!!

And i guess i wanst too clear. I haver never stopped and watched somebody fish. I do make a note of it though and think about what,why and how that area is special!

I wish i could watch the weigh in but i dont get off work untill 330 and thats in concord. The traffic would be horrible!

Tobe · Post by **Tobe** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:38 am

Ricky, I think everyone is missing the key word â€œcompetitorsâ€™

I don't see any no votes except mine.

Jason Wood · Post by **Jason Wood** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:47 am

Sorry Ricky, I was way off... I won't edit my original post but I voted NO, it is not ok...

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:48 am

Riddle me this:

If a person watching someone in a tournament is not in the tournament, would they not all be fans?

So with this theory, Kobe would not be allowed to go watch LeBron play during the finals because he was a competitor and might pick up something new?

These guys may have an alterior motive to see how the "big time" pros do it; they want to use that knoledge at the next tournament. But every boat there is watching to see how a few guys can do it when the rest of the field did not.

Let fans be fans of this sport no matter who they may be.

JustinD · Post by **JustinD** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:54 am

Conditions change daily so a spot that is good at this time during this weather condition and specific tide is kind of specific and may only be on for minutes. There must be a lot of lake anglers milling around to forget such important factors. You couldn't replicate the same exact conditons even if you wanted too for the next year or week or month. I see it as a learning tool and a stepping stone for us as anglers to see the "superstars" of our age old sport and add some validity as fans to a sport that most consider a "non-sport".

JT-Madera · Post by **JT-Madera** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:56 am

Well this is a sticky subject, but here goes..I will be up at Clear lake for the Elite Tournament..I plan on fishing the lake my way before the tournament and during the tournament, on the last day of the tournament I want to follow one of the top anglers and see what I missed...I don't think this is wrong to do...There will be some of the best in the country fishing that event and it isn't like I will be fishing against any of them any time soon............................I admire all Skeet has done in his career and if he makes it to the last day I will be there cheering him on and staying out of his way.....I don't think he will mind....That is also why I will stay out of the off limits area during the time I will be fishing before the last day... RESPECT...

If people think following an angler on the last day is somehow cheating, then we better do away with co-anglers and Am's, because they are really following too close and cheating....the system...or maybe we could find a way to erase the memories of all co-anglers....oh and we also need to do away with the camera boats...because that is also cheating..heck we also need to do away with the after tournament interviews because the angler might reveal something he used or some place he fished during the tournament, that another angler might use in the future to beat everyone else.....

JT

kopper_bass · Post by **kopper_bass** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:58 am

Toby,
I thinmk your right, that most people are typically going to say its OK to spectate the leaders, but would likely say NO to the idea of a competitor who missed the cut in an event then becoming a spectator to try and learn from his competition.

Its been stated a lot that its "unethical" or your are less of a person for doing this, so its expected that everyone's going to then vote that way. But here's a twist:

What about sports like baseball, basketball or football, where the players scout their competition, video taping them, even going to watch them play against other teams; trying to learn how a pitcher throws, finding "tells" about his delivery or pickoff move? A batter that just struck out doesnt go to the dugout and hide, not watching the pitcher throw to the next guy, he sits there and studies his moves. In almost every sport, its common for the competition to sit around and watch, study, and learn their rivals moves, positions, or plays, trying to get ready for that next competiton. Think of all the sports that study their competition; its not just team sports:
- NASCAR and Indy (they want to learn which way a driver tends to draft, goes hi or low on a pass, etc.)
- Tennis (they want to learn if the competition plays baseline, rushes the net, does he/she make passing shots on left or right)
- Boxing (learn do they go left, then right, do they pace, do they dance)

Name a sport, and i bet you can think of how the competitors study and learn about each other so they can compete better.

Why is fishing any different?
Just something to consider.

Kopper_Bass

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:04 am

I think that some of you may be missing the point of the question. I am not talking about someone following an Elite Series angler, we can't fish against them and lord knows if they will ever return to the West.

I am talking about someone following the top ten in the NG with the possibility that you willl be competing against that angler in the WON Bass two weeks later.

Here is another example: You make the cut during the Stren at the delta and three anglers who did not make the cut followed you to one of your favorite little cubby holes. The very next tournament those three guys were fishing the spot with you.

That's a little different than me following KVD during the Delta Elite.

Great points though. This is something that is happening more and more and it is good to get feedback.

JT-Madera · Post by **JT-Madera** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:24 am

Ok Ricky I promise that if you make the top ten, I will not be following you

But if a friend of mine makes it I will be following him...I know where he will be fishing anyway...

I am not fishing the WON so where guys catch their fish is really of little interest to me...I think I would rather go fishing with Cooch for the day, than follow anyone at the delta...tides and conditions change so much on the delta that little will be gained by following anyone..

But I do agree that people who follow other anglers around trying to find out how, when and why another angler is catching fish, is pretty low....if they would just go out and spend the same amount of time on the water that the guy who is catching fish does..they would not have to follow anyone...

Good topic though....it is interesting to see other peoples opinions...

JT

Jason Wood · Post by **Jason Wood** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:25 am

I think once everyone thinks about what yer askin here, Ricky, most will say that it is 100% wrong...

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:31 am

Unfortunately or fortunately there are no secrets in bass fishing..This bit of my water/his water/their water is getting totally out of hand..If a fellow competitor follows you around trying to get some sort of advantage, so be it..It is done in virtually every other sport as Joe said in his post..What makes our sport any different, or special where it is unethical to do so..Sometimes I tend to think some might take fishing competively too seriously, if there is such a thing..Even if some competitor that didn't make the cut followed one that did trying to get a leg up for a future competition, there is no way he can assure himself of being successful..If a competitor is so worried about his/her spots, techniques and baits being known and utilized by another angler, it would seem to me a lot of wasted worry..

mac

NaCl · Post by **NaCl** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:36 am

If you are fishing at the highest levels, you are fishing for big $$$ and you have a resposibility to learn as much as you can all the time. During the actual tournament, I believe you have an ethical responsibility to respect the other guy's "water". But the minute you fail to make a cut, you're another spectator. And, if you're too stupid or too arrogant to go learn from your competitor then you're destined to miss a lot more cuts.

Just m $.02

.....NaCl

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:41 am

WOW NaCl!!!!

I never looked at that way.

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:43 am

Why not? Both kopperbass and myself posted the same thing.

NaCl just used his highly refined writing skills to express it more eloquently!

Basically NaCl said it bluntly

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:47 am

Well you know what they say about nice guys verses those that cut corners. Some of us just feel a lot more fulfilling by winning on our own merits.

If that what it takes to win then I may never win a major tournament. Maybe that's what awaits us in the future. I don't see the anglers that I look up to following guys when they miss the cut.

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:54 am

But, your own merits would include doing your homework and studying your competition!

You don't win anymore $$ by reinventing the wheel!

Also, what ever you have found on your own I can guarntee is not virgin, never been found, you were the only one to discover the secrets of the place on your own merits spot.

I understand the pride aspect of this and the feeling of doing it on your own. But this is competition, and I hope you are in it to win it.

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:59 am

I once heard Dee Thomas say about bass pros that they want you to show them your water, your baits, how to fish them, and then they want you to congratulate them when they do good on the water and baits that you taught/showed them.

Go figure.

JustinD · Post by **JustinD** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:13 am

No one owns any water on the delta....I guarantee if "your" water is down here in the south I will or have beat it up already and will continue to do so....Now if I see you fishing water and you say to me, "Hey I'm in a tourney do you mind" then its all good I'll back off but on a Tuesday afternoon its all mine.

Dan McKenzie · Post by **Dan McKenzie** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:23 am

it would be un-ethical for another participant from that tournament to follow and watch another participant.

Funny thing is, how many people are successful fishing someone else's technique and water. Water-not to say anyone owns it, but an unfamilar place, not usually fished by you. I don't mean it in an "ownership" sense. Kind of like a knock off bait, never seems to work as good as the original.

clayton meyer · Post by **clayton meyer** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:24 am

not much!

let me tell you a story about what I witnessed at a weigh in. A very well known western pro having a serious discussion with the tournament director of a very large orginazation about the angler who was about to win this particular tournament. The well known pro had been followed the previous year during final days by this "new" competitor. This tournament the "new" angler was all over the well known pros water. During previous years this "new" angler had never been seen in these areas.

for the most part I think if you didn't make the cut you should fulfill sponsor obligations, maybe show up at the launch and weigh in if you want to, sleep in, go home.

If you want to follow a competitor as people have followed me, it would be nice of them to ask.. as several anglers did and I said yes.

If you are a competitor and didn't make it, hire the one you want to follow, like a guide or ask permission. Don't poach!

While it is an honor to have people follow you around a lake it does not compare to watching another athelete compete. We compete in a mysterious sport with more than physical mechanics involved.

If you see an angler on the water at any time there is always the desire to see what they are doing and you have to answer the question. Would I have fished there if I didn't see that boat?

It can work the other way also. If you see someone that you know couldn't hit water if they fell out of the boat. You might avoid the area and never know they were sitting on last years winning hole.

We all learn by observing, but making it a point to go out of your way to aquire "non public" information ranks right up there with wanting to take someones gps info or open their rod locker and examine the lures, lines and tackle without permission.

There is enough public info out there to compete at a higher level without resorting to following another boat.

Tom Sharp · Post by **Tom Sharp** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:34 am

Interesting,

When FLW aires the Havasu event can I not fish the water that the pro fished because I saw it on TV????????

What if I sat in the back of the winners Boat on day 3 as an AM, can I not fish that water next year if I go Pro?????

don't shoot me these are just questions.................

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:44 am

Please, let's not take the question out of context. I have fished enough events as a Boater and non-boater to know that I could never ask a non-boater not to return somewhere.

That's not the question...

The question is regarding another boater following you to the water that you are fishing and then fishing the same water during the next event.

There is a difference. I would rather a guy ask or see it on TV than to follow me and then act like they found the water on their own. There is a difference.

Great conversation by the way. Nothing personal.

green_monster · Post by **green_monster** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:15 am

I think that this whole thread is very interesting....

I'm torn to whether this is right or wrong. But I do believe we ALL are avid fans of the sport and have the right to watch others compete as fans. By signing up to compete does that mean you forfeit your right to be a fan? Anyone who follows anyone around during any tournament is hoping to learn something. Where do you draw the line from a weekend angler trying to learn from a pro or a pro hoping to learn from a pro?

I believe good fishermen will continually rise to the top whether people know their water/techniques/baits or not. There is much much more to why they made the cut other than just location and baits used. There is a reason why KVD is continually on top. I'm sure there are a lot of qualified fishermen that follow him around every tournament but, how often do they actually turn what they saw into instant success. Following one guy around for one day is not going to create a Classic champion. It is going to take a heck of a lot more time, effort, skill, and experience to ever reproduce what one saw. Why canâ€™t we all agree that this is the greatest sport around and just enjoy every chance we get to learn from fishing ourselves or watching others fish. Just my 2 cents.

edit:

Ricky,
I see how this question has evolved and this response is actually to the evolved part, not your initial question. Sorry.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:34 am

Hey Ricky-

I'll tell you my opinion... but, again it's just MY Opinion!

We have A LOT of "poachers" out here on the west coast. Guys the will see someone fishing a particular area or spot and then immediately mark it down as one of their spots. I have heard no less the 20 of these stories coming from guys from all over the west who have fished the FLW Series and the Stren Series events. Even some from Won Bass and AC events.

Its a shame that a guy will see someone else catch some fish and then as soon as that guy leaves go in there and try to get on their fish. I can understand that there is, on occassion, the occurance where an angler might have been heading for that spot before hand... but, definitely not in most of the cases I have heard.

It's a real shame and in my opinion it mostly comes from guys who have over extended themselves financially and will do whatever it takes, including checking their ethics at the boat ramp, to cash a check.

Besides that there are guys who literally beg for information from other guys before, during and even after an event. Again, cashing in their friends to try and catch a check.

I know this is a little bit off your question.... but, I think its along the lines of what you were asking. I think the same guys who have done the things I have mentioned may be the guys who would follow the other competitors on the cut day in order to find out what they are doing to catch the fish.

Now, on the other hand if you wanted to follow a friend around and pretty much be his cheering section (and leave your rods in the rod locker) than I can't see much harm in that. For instance, if you or Aaron didn't make the cut (and you two are good friends since childhood) and you were in town anyway - and either you or Aaron wanted to follow the other around for the final day of the event... then why not? Of course, abiding by all the rules and of course not interferring with the competition!

Just my .02!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:47 am

Hey Ricky -
I am with you on this one...
If I ever happen to win a tournament.... I want it to be on something I figured out... I came up with. Sure someone else probably has fished it before - but, that isn't how I found it. I found it on my own. That is half the game in fishing. If I should win because of something someone told me to do... or something I essentially stole from another angler it wouldn't be nearly as sweet.

As far as the comparison to the other sports. I understand the reasons for watching the film. Its not to learn how they are doing something so I myself can be better, like it would be with fishing, hell I don't have the atheletic ability to duplicate what Barry Wagner (Orlando Predators and now San Jose Sabercats) can do on the field. I am trying to figure out his tendancies so I can stop it. And that is exactly the name of the game. In fishing, my competition isn't Bobby Barrack, Gary Dobyns, Ricky or anyone else... its the fish. I figure the fish out and I'll win.... Just like golf! In some of your theories, maybe Tanya Harding wasn't far off in her theory of becomming the best...

I guess to summarize it.... in a sport where atheletic ability is the main difference between winning and losing - Film and study of other competitors is considered ethical. In a sport where lake knowledge and hours and hours on the water figuring the fish out is the key to winning than I can't see "Stealing" that knowledge from someone just because I can follow him as ethical.

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:54 am

Hey Tom,
I knew there was a reason that I like you so much. Great minds think alike.

Some of these guys talk about sports but fail to understand and RESPECT what it takes to find fish on your own and compete on a higher level. This is not about his/my water.

This question is regarding one and only one thing: Competitors following other competitors to gain an unfair advantage that they couldn't create on their own merit. That's why there are guides, but I have a problem with that as well.

Friends following friends, fans following their heros, and those who at least ASK for permission is another story.

Great conversation...

Cooch · Post by **Cooch** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:43 pm

This whole following of tournament anglers was first introduced to us in early Classics. The more TV exposure that is afforded us, the more sponsor dollars that git poured into tournament bass fishing, the more OKAY, it has become to follow anglers in many events. I don't have any problems with who is a spectator. But there is definately a line that can git crossed here, that I feel can be deemed unsportsman like. And if challenged, someone, someday, is gonna git DQ'd, or better yet, they'll follow GaryD and BDO will wake ya up and handle it HIS way!!

If any competitor chooses ta spend his time following another angler still competing, with the intent to learn and improve his understanding and knowledge of what it took to fish well in a particular event, I think that's all part of doing yer homework. But if that competitor is doing it with the intent to use the spots to which he follows the other competitor to, and then show up on that spot a week or two or next month in a different event, he's crossed an unethical line and broken every tournament organizations "Unsportsman like" conduct rules.

I know it sucks, I've had this exact same thing happen to Shawn Sheehan and I back in 1994, right here on the Delta when we were on this monster 4 week tear and won 8 straight tournaments with monster sacks. We had guys chasing us all over the river, driving the levees looking for us. And it was all coordinated by one man. Fortunately for us, by the time they did find us, we'd wore the place out, but damn that place got crowded the following weeks, years actually. It's really sad we have this crap in our sport. It's even sadder, the guys who pull this $hi+, who don't give a damn at all, bout nothing but themselves.

Problem is, How do ya police this? We shrug it off and let nature take it's course. It's their cross ta bare. But if'n it should ever happen to me again in a Pro event, rest assured, an Unsportsman like protest or a very unpleasant confrontation is forth comming. This is one of many directions this sport has waivered towards, that made it easy fer me ta say, screw tournament fishing! Where's the fun and proffessionalism, in dealing with this kinda crap?

kopper_bass · Post by **kopper_bass** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:48 pm

Tom,
I appreciate your input and opnion, but i just dont get your logic of thinking. (not you specifically, but the logic of this discussion).

2 things to consider:

1) if you didnt ever fish where you at some point saw another competitor fishing, ......... my gosh, you would never get to fish.

2) If you do see a guy fishing in a spot where you havent ever fished, what do you think is a reasonable expectation on your part to "NOT" fish it? Do you wait 2 tournaments, 1 month, 1 year, never? Why would you ever think that way?

Your point is understood, but its just an emotional one, based on rumor, ego, and reaction. We've all got these stories about one of our buddies being pissed that another competitor stole their water, or a non-boater is fishing the next tourney on water a boater took them to previously. How do you know that, how do you proove it, how can it be controlled? It can't because its too speculative and nebulous! The water is always open to everyone to fish, if not now, then next time.

I just think everyone puts their emotions into this issue rather than focusing on the real point ............. you compete with the fish, not the other fisherman!

I sure can't catch the same fish that i see Bobby or Steve out there fishing for, because i dont fish like they do, and i dont have their techniques. But i sure can try to learn why they seem to be fishing this area, and add my own technique and style to find fish in the same area - that's fishing.

just like you, its my .02

Fish_on,

Koppper_Bass

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:20 pm

Hey Kopper -

I appreciate that we will all have different opinions on this thing.

Let me clarify a couple things... Lets use Clear Lake for example..

I studying this lake hard for a year to get better on it. I even moved there for that year so I could break it down as best I could.

During my time there, I didn't follow anyone on the water... sure I saw a guy here and there... Who can't see Jimmy's boat out there? Seeing someone in a spot that looks pretty good is one thing. Then give it a try... however, here are the rules I follow.

1. If I saw him during pre-fish - then I stay away from it. Unless I can honestly say - "I was going to try that spot"

2. If I should see this person at that spot in another tournament very soon afterwards (couple months) then I will leave and let them have it. Afterall, they found it and why should I empose on their results because I am copying them. I know if I found something pretty unique I wouldn't want people to follow me and then fish it right next to me in the next events.

3. Once pre-fish is over... Day 1 all water is fair game!
On Day 2 that changes - I will not go fish water where I knew the leaders were, just because they were there. (IMHO - This is where the major ethical issues occur)

The way I see it.. is this. Do onto others, what you would want done onto you. I think to myself, "would it bother me if someone did this to me?" If the answer is Maybe or Yes... then I am not going to do it. If the answer is NO... well then, I will talk to the other person about it and make sure that its all good.

Noluk · Post by **Noluk** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:23 pm

I voted no and read the responses. And some other thoughts came into my head. I still believe the no applies if it is the intent of the angler doign the following to learn spots. But spots is an interesting discussion on Calif. lakes etc. There are very very few secret places anymore. More than likely it is a a good area right now and may well be useless a month or year from now. If a person follows someone else to learn techniques, boat positioning etc.. little bit harder for me to be against.

On the subject of respecting water.. I guess that one is impossible to define. I have always had a mindset that I was going to respect everyone elses water and try to play it 100 ethical. But I came into someone else water in a tournament once. Not in my mind and certainly not with the intent, but his perspective was different. In hindsight his perspective was the correct one but at the time I certainly didn't think I was doing anything wrong. And the person was one of my best friends. "Water" ownership issues are extremely complicated to me. If you fish somewhere regularly but don't start on that spot but fish it in your rotation etc... is it ok to fish it the next day? If you fish an area under certain weather conditions and go there to capitilize on it when the weather is good for how you fish it and see the leader from the first day nearby... what do you do?

There are many areas of gray there. I don't think most people think they are trying to crowd out but we have allot of anglers and not much water somedays. There are allot of community holes out there. (Franks Tract is mine btw

) Hopefully we all have fun at the Series. I won't have any decision making pressure since I am riding in the back.

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:24 pm

Come on kopper_bass,
I am talking about being followed much like Cooch talks about in his post. I'm not talking about his/my water disagreements (that's a mute point), but actually being followed by one or more anglers only to have them show up in little cubby hole that it took you years to find.

Like Cooch, it has happened to me as well.

I am not talking about driving by and seeing an angler on a stretch or something like that, but flat out waiting for you at blast off and following you; Not as a fan or friend but following you to see where and how you are fishing, only to fish the same water in the very next tournament. Don't take the question out of context.

It is almost like having someone follow you home and break into your house while you're at work.

I could care less if someone sees me on a bank and then desides to fish it-That's part of the game. However, I am talking about following you in order to enhance their chances of fishing water that they could not or did not find on their own. There is a difference and big one.

I can tell that those of us that have had it happen really understand the impact that it has on sportmanship and the sport.

mac (Doyle McEwen) · Post by **mac (Doyle McEwen)** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:26 pm

I agree with Joe 100%..Now it is easy to say someone followed you then the next tournament they fished "your" water, one can easily come to the conclusion the only reason for that person to be there is they saw you fishing there..I mean after all you have never seen them fish that area before, right..I take it you have a 24 hour watch on the spot year round..Might it also be possible the person has fished that area previously, perhaps they didn't do so hot the last time they did and just want to give it another go..It is good for our egos to say they stole the water because you were catching fish there..It validates our own thinking about how good a spot it is..But are we really being honest with ourselves when we look at it that way..Even as large as the Delta is, there are probably few if any spots that haven't been fished and fished thouroughly..We all know that the bite often changes daily and in some case hourly..Even if someone did go to your normally great spot, and even if they did use the same baits you use there, they cannot be assured of catching anything..Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't..It's kinda like a reserved parking place, if you are important enough to rate one, then in my opinion you are important enough to be there first..Of course I know it does not always work that way, but we can dream can't we..

mac

Fishin' Dave · Post by **Fishin' Dave** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:36 pm

This reminds me of Hollywood Clebs.

They want all the money and fame, but then they want to be left alone.

This is what you get for winning tournaments. This is why you get paid, sponsored, and reconized.

If you don't want guys following you, get a tin boat, rip those sponsor patches off your shirt, and throw some shiners.

green_monster · Post by **green_monster** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:39 pm

I voted yes originally because I thought of it as in a bigger picture. However, in Ricks specific scenario I would by all means vote NO!

Now from reading and thinking about this broader issue I wonder, as a non-boater, hoping to learn from the people I fish with, when is it appropriate to fish water that I fished with a pro in the previous year or two? As I plan to hopefully be fishing as a boater in the next couple years I will have had a large amount of water that I learned about from other pros.

Ricky-S · Post by **Ricky-S** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:50 pm

I think that this is a communication issue. As a non-boater you have every right, within reason, to return to any water (after the tournament) that you are taken to.

However, there is a right and wrong way to do things. Merely making contact with the pro (if he/she is fishing the same event) would afford you a lot more respect compared to you merely showing up on game day.

If they aren't fishing then have at it.

My post is about being followed by another competitor who did not make the cut and having to fish against them on water that they, indeed, followed you to.

Don't change the issue.....Great points.

Steve Reed · Post by **Steve Reed** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:52 pm

So here is how I see it.

I feel like in any sport or game if someone is doing something and are suceeding you should do that too, or at least give it a shot. Watching someone fish water, and then knowing where that water is seems fair to me, there is no rule against it, so how can it be unfair.

The waterways are publice water ways, there is not my spot, his spot, watever everything is everyones spot. Tommy biffle was wrong, there shouldnt be anything wrong with that. I think its fair if a tournament angler wanted to follow someone around the first day and fish their water right after them. I dont see how its cheating or unfair at all.

I think its smart to find others spots and techniques, yeah its not original, but you worked to find it by watching someone else. I really dont understand this rule?

I feel like the whole fishing community believes once they see a spot its theirs, or once they catch a fish on ceratin lure thats their lure. It ridiculous, you still have to know how to catch them.

I mean i heard mike tuck say at the ise he watched guys fish an entire shore line then followed them up and caught fish they didnt....is that wrong? why is it?

Maybe this is because i am not at the level of these guys, and maybe my inexperience is showing in this matter, i just cant understand where you guys are coming from....sorry, im still learning

Matt Moreau · Post by **Matt Moreau** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:05 pm

Well I do agree with Rick and Cooch... It isnt right to flat out follow another person to a "SPOT" just to beat him to it the next tourney.

But it happens plain and simple. Would i appreciate it happening to me? NO! But i think the example of being a celebrity is spot on. It comes with bieng popular, famous or just plain good!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:08 pm

I do agree that I don't have any water... never have and never will and neither does any other angler out there. However, I won't follow someone or copy them in order to try and win a tournament and I don't think others should.

Luckily, I am not good enough for this to be an issue for myself... but, someday I hope it is... and in that case I would hope that others would see it the way I do.

After all we all throw frogs because someone tried it out and it worked.. and we followed along. Goes for drop shotting and swimbaits and everything else for that matter. In my opinion, we all learn from those before us.... In my opinion it's just not right to copy someone just to win events! The way I see it you are learning from them and then burning them with it too.

It's business ethics 101. .... some have it some don't. I'd like to think I personally have it. I try to do the right thing all of the time... doesn't always work out that way, but I do try.

I would also venture to say that those not following these ethics will have a tougher time making it in this industry. The press doesn't want to cover poachers.. sponsors aren't going to want to sponsor poachers... if you get it out there that you are a poacher you are in a world of hurt if you want to try and make a career of this. One guy claiming you are a poacher is one thing - 10-20 guys is a whole 'nother thing. It's a very small industry and word gets around very fast!

Everyone here is their own person - do what you want. Who am I to tell someone how to fish or live? I realize that! I am just giving my .02 which is worth exactly the same as everyone else's .02... I know that and believe that. What I think is right others won't agree with and vice versa..... so its all good - do what you feel is right - you only have to answer to yourself (unless you want press and/or sponsors)!

kopper_bass · Post by **kopper_bass** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:14 pm

Ricky,
Point well taken about communication. That solves 99% of this issue; especially with NB's and future use.

Regarding your question on point, I just think it makes a huge assumption (based on ego) that just because someone is following you on gameday, that they are then stealing your water.

How do you ever know if he is studying your water, your technique, your boat positioning, or just some GAY LOVE affair? Har!

My point is this, if i watch Jack VanGrow dropshotting on the final day of the AC Pro/Am outside of the wall on Franks tract to win, and then next month i'm fishing in there doing whatever i want and along comes Jack, how does he ever know whether i fished this area sometime before i watched him, whether i learned to throw a crankbait here by watching him dropshot, or anything else about me and how i am fishing this area?

You don't - the only thing he is 100% sure of is that i watched him do something great and win a boat doing it. So, to make the rule then that you cant fish there because you watched me there, just seems silly to me.

Kopper_Bass

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:16 pm

Hey George - I hope you end up on the back of my boat -
We'll be following Jimmy on Wednesday, Sapp on Thursday and whoever is leading on Friday! ha ha ha!!! Then on Saturday since I probably won't be fishing I'm following Ricky all day and going to cheer him on to victory... so he can bring the trophy on home to Fontana!!!

Of course, I was making an attempt at comedy with following guys... but, it would be great to draw you... In that case, you better have your decision cap on!

When are you coming up? PM or email me if you want to pre-fish Mon, or Tues..... I have an open backseat for those days!

See you on the delta!